In this episode, Cadie and Emma sit down with Dr. Mike Hurley, a psychology advisor and professor who has been at GMU for over 30 years!
EMMA: Welcome to CHSS Connection, a podcast where we interview different students about all things CHSS, from academics to careers to everything in between. This is a student success podcast for CHSS students by CHSS students. However, if you're not a CHSS student, welcome! We're so glad you're here. I'm Emma Howard. CADIE: I'm Cadie Junker. BOTH: And we're your hosts. CADIE: In this episode, we're doing something a bit different. Well, this is a student success podcast where we highlight the amazing work CHSS students do. We know that they could not do that work without the support and mentorship of the faculty here at GMU. So today we're sitting down with a beloved member of the psychology program. He's an academic advisor and associate professor here at GMU. Please welcome to the show, Dr. Mike Hurley. Dr. Hurley, thank you so much for joining us. How are you doing? DR. HURLEY: Well, it's my pleasure to be here. I'm doing great. Thank you. CADIE: It's our pleasure to have you on. EMMA: Absolutely. So for anyone who doesn't know you, what do you do in the psychology program? DR. HURLEY: Yeah. So as I was just introduced, I am an associate professor, but also an advisor. Advising has kind of evolved in the 32 years I've been at George Mason. And so I'm kind of a dinosaur in that I'm a faculty member who also advises. There aren't many of us left anymore. Anyway, I teach three classes each semester, two psychology courses and one university studies course every fall and spring. And I usually teach a couple of summer classes as well. But that's my choice. Nobody has to teach in the summer, typically, if you're a nine-month faculty like I am. And I say, well, I do about maybe 15 hours of advising a week. But in reality, it turns out, on average, because of the crush of advising requests during the registration period, on average, I probably end up doing about half of my time advising each week on average. Because I'm doing like 70% of my weeks advising during October and November. But I also have other administrative responsibilities in the psych department beyond advising and teaching. For example, I am the person who constructs the psychology department's course schedule every semester. Now, I don't want to take any blame for classes that aren't offered that students want. Because I am not the ultimate decider on that. The faculty choose what they're going to teach. And then the department chair kind of fills in the rest. That's kind of how that works. But I do the actual job of putting it all together. And I'm also involved with doing teaching assignments among our graduate students who teach, as well as part-time faculty. That's another thing that's changed quite a bit over the years. When I first got here, we had a lot of part-time faculty teaching for us. But we've gone some semesters where we don't hire more than one or two. So that's something that's really changed, too. Because so many more of our graduate students teach now than used to. It's the main reason for that. And then that's pretty much most of what I spend my time doing. So the admin stuff, the teaching, and the advising. EMMA: I think it's just so interesting to hear you've worked here for 32 years, you said? DR. HURLEY: Yes. In fact, I didn't even realize it until it came up on LinkedIn today, that today is literally my 32nd anniversary of George Mason. CADIE: Wow! EMMA: Oh, my gosh! Congratulations! CADIE: And you're on the podcast! That's amazing! DR. HURLEY: I knew I started in December. I didn't remember that it was December the 4th. EMMA: Oh, wow, yeah. What a special day. CADIE: Kind of on that note, what was your path to becoming a member of the psych faculty here at GMU? DR. HURLEY: Yeah, it was an interesting one. Well, maybe interesting is not the right word. But when I was in, I'll try to give you the shortest version as possible. But I want to provide a little bit of context. CADIE: Oh, please. We love tangents here. EMMA: Yes. DR. HURLEY: Okay. So I went to graduate school to get my PhD to become a therapist. That was my plan. But during my clinical training, I realized I didn't want to be a therapist anymore once I had done it for a while for a number of reasons, which I won't go into here. And I decided also in graduate school that what I really wanted to do was work at a university. I realized, you know, I love being a graduate student. I love being at university, being around students, being around faculty. That was where I enjoyed spending my time. And so that's when I knew I wanted to go more in that direction professionally than working as a therapist. So I actually changed graduate programs midway through. I don't recommend anybody plan on doing that. It's kind of an unorthodox thing. And it's not unusual to change programs when you're an undergrad, change majors, transfer schools. It's not as common in graduate school, but I did it. And I've done graduate students in our department who've done it over the years, who've gone from, say, our clinical program to our human factors program. I've known at least a couple of students who did that. And there are probably others that I've forgotten about. But anyway, once I knew I wanted to do that, those were the types of positions I was looking for, teaching, advising, things working with students. I was pretty much open as to what direction to go in. I wasn't really sure when I first got out of grad school what I wanted really to do. And so I was actively looking for positions. And I was actually working in the mortgage industry while I was trying to find an academic position because I still had to pay rent. And so this position at Mason became available. I was actually living-. I was in graduate school down in Florida. But then I moved up here because I'm originally from this area. And I knew that I didn't want to stay in Florida. Five years was enough. And so I moved back up here, found a job, continued to look. And I was looking not just in this area there. I was looking all over the country. I was open to relocating. When this position at Mason in the psych department, I came across the position description for it. And so I applied. And they called me in for an interview. So I came in. And it was in the middle of the fall semester. And they offered me the job. So it was originally, interestingly, the job was advertised as a halftime advising only position. That's what I applied for. And I didn't want a halftime job. But I figured, well, once I'm there, hopefully I can figure out a way to become full time. And I didn't have to wait because when the department called me following the interview, I was asked whether I would be interested in being full time rather than halftime. And I said, “Yes, of course, I definitely would.” And then that's when they added the teaching and administrative stuff onto it to turn it into a full time position. But there were a lot of technical things going on about getting that position lined up. So I actually did work halftime for about maybe a month. I don't remember. It's so long ago now. But I'll be honest with you. In terms of the workload, I kind of liked the halftime schedule. I came in Monday through Thursday from 830 to 1230. And I had Fridays off. And I wasn't making any money. But the work schedule was awesome. But anyway, the full time thing finally came through sometime later in the spring. I think maybe March or something like that. I converted to full time. And I've been here ever since. EMMA: Wow. What an incredible journey. CADIE: Yeah. EMMA: As someone who, I mean, because there were so many things that stuck out to me in your story. But I think there was something really, I was really relieved to hear that-. I'm sure it was stressful for you. But graduating after getting your master's, and you're like, I'm still figuring it out. Like, that's so relieving to hear, frankly, I think. DR. HURLEY: Yeah, I share that story with students all the time. Because I see students coming in with those same questions and insecurities. And they're not sure what to do. So I do, I try to let them know, look, you know, people who actually end up somewhere where they want to be, go through that too. You know, that doesn't mean you're not going to find your path. You just, you know, you just got to keep plugging away. And eventually you'll figure out where you're going to go. It's, you know, I've always envied those people who always know exactly what they're going to do. Right? I've never been that person my entire life. I went through, I went all through college thinking I was going to law school. And then I took a job as a paralegal at a law firm for about a year and a half. And I realized I don't want to be a lawyer. These people are miserable. They make a lot of money, but none of them are happy. CADIE: Ain't that the truth. Love you, Dad. DR. HURLEY: Oh, I hope I didn't insult your father. CADIE: Oh, no, no, no. He'll agree with you. DR. HURLEY Now, I have, I do have to say that while I was in college, I also worked at a different law firm, which made me want to go to law school. I love that law firm and the lawyers there. It was a very small law firm. The one I worked at as a paralegal was a really big law firm. And the atmospheres could not have been more different in those two law firms. And it just turned me off, though, after working there. And so that's when, and I was not a psychology major in college, but I did take a lot of psych classes as electives because I just stumbled across one my junior year and I really enjoyed it. It was a social psychology class and I loved it. And so I still had several electives left to take before I graduated. So I just kept picking up different psych classes because I found them all really interesting. So when I made the decision not to go to law school, I thought, hmm, maybe I should look into psychology. I really did enjoy those classes. So I went, I got a master's degree in, it's called a General Experimental Psychology program down at William & Mary. I recommend it to students all the time because guess what? It's one of the few master's programs where they give you a full tuition waiver if you're admitted to the program. You don't pay a penny of tuition down there for that program. EMMA: Oh, wow. DR. HURLEY: They basically, like PhD programs in psychology, like most of the PhD programs out there, they basically pay you to go to grad school because you get a graduate assistantship where you're either teaching like labs, undergrad labs, like statistics or research methods, experimental methods or something. Or they also had, I think they still do, I guess they call it a clinical internship at Eastern State Hospital, which is down in Williamsburg too. And in exchange for that, you get your tuition waived and they pay you a stipend, which at the time I went there was enough to live off of. So it was great because, you know, it was cheap living. I paid, just to give you an idea, I was renting a room in a house. I was paying $160 a month. And back in those days, you know, we didn't have cell phones, right? So, and you had to pay for long distance calls. So my long distance calls were included in that $160. So I could have called Timbuktu and I wouldn't have had to pay a penny more than my $160 a month to live there. I couldn't do it to those people. They're very nice. We became friends. But yeah, so that was kind of how I got on the psychology path. And I thought I wanted to become a therapist. And this is one of the reasons I tell this story to students is as a kind of an object lesson, hopefully for them, is that I made that decision without really knowing what I was getting into. And that's what I discovered when I started doing therapy as part of my training. And I'm kind of shocked in retrospect now that I was admitted to that program. I don't think there's a clinical program or counseling program in the country that would admit me today. With the experience I had, would admit me now. They put so much more emphasis on having, in addition to research experience, which has always been something that students need to get into PhD programs. But I think they seem to put a lot more emphasis on applied practical experience, which I did not really have much of. The closest thing I got, and I did it for this specific purpose, was I volunteered at a shelter for victims of domestic violence. I spent most of my time doing things with the kids of the women who were staying there when they were in their therapy sessions and things like that. And that was really the extent of any kind of practical experience I got. And somehow I got into that graduate program. EMMA: Well, and now you're here. Yeah, wow. Coming back to your time here, you mentioned that you've taught classes and teach classes. What has been your favorite class to teach? DR. HURLEY: Yeah, well, believe it or not, for a long, long, long time it was statistics. But I have a new favorite class. I started teaching about five years ago a university studies course on personal finance. It's called financial literacy. And the way I got into teaching that class was I had decided years ago that if and when the date, well, not if, but when the day came that I left George Mason retiring, I might want to have a second act doing something else. And I started gaining a lot of interest in becoming a financial advisor. And so I went UVA. I don't know if it's still there, but they used to have a satellite campus in Falls Church where they offered a CFP, that's certified financial planners. It's a designation program there. And I was living in Falls Church at the time. And so I applied and got into the program. And during that time and subsequent to going through the program, I started reserving classrooms on campus and inviting psych students, graduate students and undergraduates to come to the room. And I would hold like a two hour personal finance seminar. And I would just go over a bunch of stuff with these guys, just to give them things to think about as they're getting ready to come out of school and start the working world and making money and kind of have an idea of what to do with it. So anyway, I knew about this class. And one day, somebody from the university studies office emailed me and said, hey, we're looking for somebody new to teach this class. Would you be interested in teaching it? And I said, well, I would. But I mean, how did you even know to contact me about it? Somehow they found out about those classroom sessions that I had been holding. CADIE: Oh wow! DR. HURLEY: Somehow the word got over there about that. The sad thing to me about that class is that I believe it's a class every student at George Mason should have to take before they graduate. And yet we have one section of that class every semester. The one I teach is the only one that's taught. So a minuscule percentage of Mason students ever take that class, which is a shame, I think. And I love teaching. I love that class. EMMA: Yeah, I mean, I would certainly take that class now. I would. Yeah, very, very beneficial. CADIE: Yeah, absolutely. EMMA: You've shared your experiences working with students in the classroom, in advising sessions, and in so many incredible moments throughout your time here. What's the most rewarding part of working with students? DR. HURLEY: So I mentioned to you that I discovered that today was my 32nd anniversary because a couple people sent me LinkedIn messages congratulating me because LinkedIn puts that up there. Right? And I got a message from a former student who I have been in touch with a few times since she graduated because she also ended up coming back here for graduate school after she got her bachelor's degree. And she just made some kind of a comment like, “Dr. Hurley, you know what? I wouldn't be where I am today without your help when I was a Mason student.” And I never get tired of hearing messages like that. You know, it's very rewarding. I've always told people, sorry I get emotional. CADIE: You’re fine! DR. HURLEY: That one of the things that I've always valued about my job is that it's a type of job where you can make a difference in somebody else's life. Now, not all jobs give you that opportunity. And it is something that I put a high value on. So that kind of thing is definitely something that I really love about the job. And I forget how you put the question about. What was the question again? EMMA: What's the most rewarding part of working? DR. HURLEY: Yeah, yeah. So things like that, definitely. The other one, this might sound a little weird, but, you know, when you work, it's unusual in this day and age to work at the same place for so many years, right? It's really not very common. It was 50 years ago, but it's not now, right? But I know a lot of other, well, a lot might be an exaggeration, but I know a number, I'll just leave it at that, of people who've been around as long as I have or close to as long as I have who are still here too, you know? And it's just, I think about that sometimes when I run into them and say, man, I was seeing that guy back here in the 90s. And we're both still here. And I've seen people come here who came here after me and have already retired and I'm still hanging around. CADIE: Wow. DR. HURLEY: So yeah, those things and just, you know, going to the graduations and seeing the students you met at freshman orientation and then you see them walking across the stage, you know, all that kind of stuff is always fun. I always say that graduation day is the saddest day of the year when you're a teacher because all the students you've known for the last two to four years are going on and going to do hopefully bigger and better things, but their time here is done. EMMA: Yeah. CADIE: The first part that you brought up was working with students and just hearing that, you know, you have made such a big impact, but they can't do that if they don't use academic advising. So our next question for you, how can students utilize academic advising to their advantage? Because I know plenty of students who think, ‘Oh, well, I've got it all planned out. I've looked at the websites. I don't need to do academic advising.’ Or like, ‘Oh, well, I don't really know what I'm supposed to do, so I don't know how helpful they'll be.’ Things like that. DR. HURLEY: Yeah. The best thing to do, one, is to see an advisor every semester. We tell students that at freshman orientation and at transfer student orientation that, you know, you want to come in every semester, meet with an advisor, make sure you know where you stand with regard to your degree progress, right? I'm always amazed at how many seniors, or at least students who think they're seniors, credit-wise, they may be seniors, but they, you know, they, because they weren't meeting with advisors regularly, have taken a lot of electives they didn't need and weren't taking requirements. And so they've racked up, you know, 90, 100 credits, but they're 40 credits away from actually graduating, you know, that kind of thing. And I feel bad. I hate to be the one that has to deliver that news to them, that they're going to be here an extra year, you know. So it is important to do that. But kind of along with that is that I don't think students should over or only rely on meeting with advisors. One of the things that's a great source of consternation for me and other advisors I know here at George Mason is how many students do not look at their own degree audit and try to get a sense of where they are. And, you know, the other thing that we try to remind students of, and I know the dean's office and CHSS does this too at orientations, they remind the students that ultimately you're, talking to the students, they tell them, you are responsible for knowing what your degree requirements are and making sure you take them. Advisors are here to help you, but ultimately it's your responsibility to know where you are. And I agree with that. And so it does worry me when students don't make a real effort to try to understand where they are in their degree progress and that kind of thing. They just kind of go from one semester to the next, register for their classes and don't kind of have a sense of where they are really overall. And that's, you know, and that's not a great place to be. It's better to always kind of know where you're at, I think. CADIE: Yeah. Look at your degree audit. I know they changed over from Degree Works, which I do miss Degree Works. DR. HURLEY: Yes, we all do. CADIE: I will admit, but it is very helpful. I don't think I could do college without looking at my degree audit and cross-checking that with like my Google Doc. I have a Google Doc called My Life Plan Sorta Kinda-. EMMA: Nice. CADIE: With all of my classes planned out for the next however many years I'm going to be here at Mason. But it could always change if my advisor tells me otherwise. DR. HURLEY: Yeah, that's a great idea. And I have met with students who do that. They come in, when they come in, they have it there. I'm always very impressed by that. So they're definitely students who do prepare very well. And not surprisingly, they generally are students who are getting good grades too. Because they're well-prepared for everything they do. EMMA: Yeah. I'm an English major, so I'm with Laura Scott. Love Laura. DR. HURLEY: Oh, yeah. Laura's one of the ones who's been around as long as I have. EMMA: Oh, my goodness. OK, Cadie, you have to get Laura on for an English spotlight episode. CADIE: I will. EMMA: Laura's fantastic. But I don't have all of my... Of course, I know how many credits I have left and my requirements I have to take. But it's always fun to go into our meetings and I'm like, yeah, Laura, here's all of my thoughts I'm thinking right now. She's like, OK, let's talk through it. We got it. And so I can definitely say that I think my advisor and the spaces that advisors provide is definitely a very safe and welcoming space here at Mason, I would say, at least to talk things out and to figure things out with your academic plan. DR. HURLEY: Yeah, one of the roles, I think, you know, George Mason, English is a very large department like psychology, not quite as big, but it's one of the larger departments. And it's very difficult for students in large departments to get the same professor maybe more than one time. You know, you have to really work to try to get that same professor that you like more than once. And so the advisor is the one consistent person that a student often has in their two, three, four years that they're going to be here. And so I do think that the advisor has kind of a special responsibility to understand that and know that that's where that person for a lot of students. EMMA: Definitely. I know Laura has definitely had some has probably thought to herself, like, I don't think Emma should do that or I don't think Emma needs to think on this a little more. So I know you talked about this in the promo. As an advisor, I'm sure you've come across many students who would like to do many different things with their psychology degree. Could you tell us a bit about the career paths that someone studying psychology could pursue? DR. HURLEY: Sure. So one of the things I tell students when this comes up, because a lot of students will come into the office and want to talk about, you know, what's going to come next. And they'll and this is probably true for a lot of majors, maybe most majors, but psychology majors often feel like. They have to get a “psychology job,” OK? I'm using air quotes for those who can't see me. And one of the first things I try to get them to think about is that you don't have to get a psychology job necessarily. Now, if that's what you would like to do, great. OK, we can talk about that. But the fact of the matter is most, you know, I always tell them, you go find 10 working adults who've been to college and ask how many of them are working in a field related to their college major and probably two will say they are and the rest won't. That's the norm. That's not the exception. And so I try to remind them of that, first of all, and I'm not trying to encourage them not to look for a psychology job. I just want to give them permission to not only focus on psychology, because what I tell them to do is to just think about the kind of work you would like to do. Forget about that you're a psychology major. Set that aside as something that's completely irrelevant, independent of your career choice. And what kind of work would you like to do? And if you if you have an idea about that, then the next question can be, is that something I can do with my psychology degree? And the answer might be yes. Or it might be, well, I have to get a graduate degree or I have to get a certificate of some kind or maybe I have to change my major, you know, possibly and that kind of thing. So I, you know, I just say, look, it's like it's like going on to an eight lane super highway and staying in the right lane and never feeling like you can venture into any of the other lanes when they're all there for the taking, right? So that's one thing. And then and then but there are and then I kind of separate majors into two broad categories. I said there are some majors that do prepare you for a career. I call them the professional majors like nursing, accounting, engineering, things like that. Right? You can't go into any of those fields without those degrees. You're not gonna be a nurse if you haven't studied nursing, right? You’re just not going to, but almost any other type of career besides those you can do with any major. I said, you go into Indeed or any of these job search websites, they only look for a degree. They almost never say what major you have to be. They want you to have a degree and they want you to have certain skills. And if you have those things, you're a candidate. So I try to make them realize that. However, to go back to your original question, there are some career paths that psychology majors sort of gravitate toward. Interestingly, one of them is human resources is a very popular career field for people with a psychology background. A another one would be something like marketing. CADIE: Oh, interesting. DR. HURLEY: Yeah. And actually, communications is a is a field where a lot of people go into marketing with a COMMS degree, too. That's not unusual. And another field where I'm not going to say this is a popular field for psych majors, but it's one where psych majors could absolutely work in this field, which is personal finance. There's so much psychology to personal finance. People have stress and anxieties about personal finance. You know, it's all about decision making. Those are all psychology things. And you don't have to have a business background to go and to be a personal like a financial planner, financial advisor, that kind of thing. You know, you want to work on Wall Street as a stockbroker or something. You probably have to have more of a finance background. But personal finance being a financial planner is more about understanding just the different aspects of personal finance that almost any adult who lives in the United States needs to have some knowledge of anyway. And being able to help people make decisions and be an objective set of eyes on things for people, because so much emotion is tied up in making decisions about your own personal finances, that people often will make the wrong decision based on emotion when an objective financial advisor will be able to see it more clearly and can spell out what some other options of doing things could be and that kind of thing. So that's definitely a field somebody with a psychology background could go into. But I'll just give a couple other examples. I have a sister who was a psychologist. These are more anecdotal. But I have my older sister was a psychology major, and she had a very long, very productive career as a hospital administrator with a psychology degree. She ended up getting a master's degree in hospital administration along the way, but she didn't need it. She just did it because she wanted to get it. She would have had the exact same career with or without that master's degree. I have a cousin who was a psychology major. She made very good money, had a very successful career working in pharmaceutical marketing in New York City. She is now happily retired in Naples, Florida with her husband. She retired. She was way younger than I am. She made a lot more money than I have. But there are two examples of you don't have to work in a psychology field necessarily with a psych degree. And that's true of just about every major, not just psychology, but that's my department. So, but those are some thoughts on that that came to me. EMMA: So, yeah, well, thank you for sharing those thoughts. I think it's very relieving to hear how there's no, I mean, there are some like maybe like more psychology focused careers, but almost for almost any major here at Mason, there's no, there's not going to be a set career path. It's just what you make it. DR. HURLEY: That's correct. And the former dean of the college used to say, Robert Matz, a major is not a career. They're different. They're two different things. Oh, one other thing, career related that I find interesting that things over time, interests change, right? When I first started working here for at least, I would say at least the first 10 years I worked here, it was very, very popular among psych majors to want to become elementary school teachers. We had a lot of psych majors who were taking the courses for certification for elementary school teaching in those days. I cannot remember the last time I met with a student for that reason. It's been over 10 years, at least since the last time anybody came in for that career choice in mind. So I don't know what happened with that, but it just is not as popular for whatever reason. CADIE: Yeah, I know that a couple of people we've had on the podcast are researchers and want to go into more of the research avenue of psych and GMU is an R1 school and research is a big part of the programs here. I was wondering, have you done research before? And if you have, what's your favorite one? DR. HURLEY: Yeah, so I did in graduate school. I have, I'm not a researcher here at George Mason. My only involvement in research at Mason has been mentoring students in our undergraduate psychology honors program. So they're the ones doing the research, but I'm giving them the feedback and overseeing the project with them and that kind of thing. So when I was in graduate school, so I did in my master's program, it was a two-year program and we basically did two master's theses. We had to do a first-year research project, which was essentially a thesis, and then a formal master's thesis in the second year. So because I just thought it looked fun, there was a professor in the program who did humor research and I thought, oh, I like humor. And I wasn't sure if I liked research yet. So, because as I said, I was not a psych major in college, so I didn't do any psych research in college. That was my first taste of it in grad school. And I enjoyed it. I really enjoyed it. And I wasn't as smart as my peers in my program, though, because they all did their first year project and then expanded on it in their second year for the thesis, which makes a whole lot of sense. I did two completely different projects, because I wasn't as smart as they were, I guess, but I had fun doing it. In graduate school, I did more of a sports psychology focused project, and that was the one I really, as much fun as I have with the humor research, that was the one I was more interested in overall, because I kind of focused my interest a little bit more, because I was interested in student athletes. I was at the University of Miami, and the University of Miami, especially when I was down there in the late 80s and early 90s, they were a big, big time football program, and they were winning national, they won two national championships while I was down there. It's a private university, and I couldn't get within 100 yards of any of the athletes there. They were very protective of the athletes, and so they weren't going to let me use them as research subjects, but I had the great good fortune that a woman in my graduate program was married to the director of advising in the athletic department at Florida International University, which is right down the road from the University of Miami, and he got me access to every single team at that university. EMMA: Wow. CADIE: That's great. DR. HURLEY: So I got tons of data from the athletes at FIU. They have a much bigger time athletic department now than they did in those days. It was still a relatively young university back then, but nevertheless, it didn't matter for me for my research, and so it was great. I mean, they provided some survey data for me, but I had the chance to do interviews with one or two athletes on every team and that kind of thing, and I really enjoyed that project. It was a lot of fun. CADIE: Well, I can't believe it because this has been such a joy to sit down and talk to you, but we have come to our last question. We like to ask all of our guests the same final question. That is, do you have any advice for our listeners? DR. HURLEY: Yes. This is a piece of advice I tell students quite often during advising sessions, and it's something we've sort of talked about in terms of my own life experience in graduate school and so on, and that is one of the things that I've learned in life is that if at any point you feel like you're on the wrong path, you can't be afraid to get off of it. You have to get off of it. It is completely irrational to stay on a path that you know is not the right path for your life, but people do it because they're afraid. They're afraid. They don't like it here, but they're comfortable here. They know what's going on here, and they're afraid to see what's going on over here or over there, but I'd rather go in an unknown direction than stay on a path to misery, so I think that's for students, yhat's for anybody. I just think that's important that people ought to take that point of view because there's nothing to be gained by going in a direction that you know isn't right once you've concluded it's not the right one. Now, some people's life circumstances make them feel like they're just not in a position to be able to make a change. I understand that. I do, so I would never judge anybody for that, but if they ever get to a point where they feel like maybe they can make the move, I would encourage them to do it or at least strongly consider it. That's definitely one thing that I would say to any student who came to see me. EMMA: Thank you for that. That brings to mind the image of the eight-lane highway. You can't be afraid to switch lanes or get off the highway, go on the freeway, or take an exit. You know you're not on the right lane. You have to change it. DR. HURLEY: Yeah, that's right. Why would you stay on the right lane where the traffic's moving at the snail's pace when the other seven lanes are completely wide open? Right. EMMA: Well, once again, Dr. Mike Hurley, thank you so much for being here. If students want to reach out to you, how could they do that? DR. HURLEY: Yes, well, first of all, you're welcome. My pleasure. This is a lot of fun. I've really enjoyed it. Yes, so I can be contacted in a couple of ways. I can be reached by email through the Undergraduate Psychology Advising Office, which is UGPSYC at gmu.edu. Our phone number in the Psych Advising Office is 703-993-1384. I'm on LinkedIn. That's the only social media I have any connection to. I got off of Facebook 10-plus years ago. I haven't missed it for a single moment, but LinkedIn, not that I spend a ton of time on LinkedIn, but I am connected to it. So when people send me messages, I get the emails, I log in, so I can stay in touch with people that way. So that's another way to get a hold of me, but those are the main ways, I would say. EMMA: And with that, we're going to close out this episode. So again, we just say it again to all our guests, but really just thank you for being here. This really has been, I'm so sad this has to be like a 30-ish minute episode because I just have so many questions I'd love to ask you and to hear about your story, but really thank you for being here and taking this time. DR. HURLEY: Well, you're welcome. I've thoroughly enjoyed it. EMMA: Thank you. Awesome. Listeners, thank you so much for listening to this episode of CHSS Connection. CADIE: Hey, thank you for listening to this episode of CHSS Connection. This podcast is hosted and written by Emma Howard and Cadie Junker. Our audio engineer is Dennis Gabitov. Our supervisor is Eleana Velasco. This podcast is produced by George Mason University's College of Humanities and Social Sciences, Undergraduate Academic Affairs. Special thanks to the Mason Innovation Exchange for their recording studio. The podcast could not happen without them. This project was developed in collaboration with Career Services and the On-Campus Internship Program. If you love the show and want to interact with more of our content, follow us on Instagram @chsspod or check out the CHSS website where there's an ongoing library of our episodes. You can also be a potential guest on our podcast. If you enjoyed the show and would like to express your support, there are a few things you can do. EMMA: You can leave a review wherever you are listening to this podcast. You can help by word of mouth, either by telling someone directly who might be interested in the show or posting about it on social media, tagging @chsspod. All these things help support the show and we appreciate anyone who has done it or will do so in the future. Again, thank you for tuning into this episode. We hope you will tune in to the next episode where we are joined by Iyana Richardson to discuss the criminology program in CHSS. But until then, stay curious! CADIE: Stay creative! BOTH: And stay connected!